An interesting podcast discussing how gender/sex differences affect humans with reference to what has been learned from primates and other animal species.
1. Dr. Frans de Waal's Work and Influence
- Dr. de Waal is a highly accomplished scientist, having published hundreds of articles in prestigious journals like Science and Nature, a feat described as rare and placing him "in the league of his own".
- His popular books, translated into over 20 languages, have made him one of the world's most visible primatologists.
- His work has been profoundly influential, particularly on the biological basis of morality, the development of moral sentiments in chimpanzees, and the sophisticated nature of hierarchical behaviour in primates. He also focuses on play and gender.
- De Waal was trained as an ethologist, studying naturalistic animal behaviour, initially focusing on observation and later incorporating behavioural experiments to study reconciliation, empathy, and cooperation.
2. Hierarchies and Social Organisation
- De Waal challenges the simplistic view that dominance hierarchies are based purely on coercion and power. He argues that a dominant individual needs followers, and dominance is a "two-way street".
- Stable alpha males in chimpanzee society are often not bullies, but rather peacekeepers who break up fights, defend the underdog (e.g., juveniles against adults, females against males), reassure distressed individuals, and can be extremely popular.
- An alpha male's position often depends on the support of others, including male and female supporters, who must be kept happy through reciprocity. For example, an alpha male might allow a male supporter to mate with females in exchange for continued support.
- This concept of stable social organisation being predicated on competence and reciprocity, rather than mere power, is considered revolutionary.
- Female chimpanzees and bonobos can be very powerful, with collective female dominance observed in bonobos, particularly when females can travel together and form strong "sisterhoods". Mama, an alpha female chimpanzee, was dominant for 40 years and crucial in the alpha male dynamics.
3. Sex, Gender, and Play Behaviour
- De Waal distinguishes sex (biological, based on chromosomes, genitals, hormones) from gender (masculine/feminine, cultural, flexible, and related to social norms and expectations).
- He contends that gender is not purely a social construct; it is "grounded in biological differences" and would not exist without sexes. The concept of gender is related to sex and never purely cultural.
- Toy preferences and play behaviours are deeply rooted in biology and observed across primate species and human children.
- Young female primates and girls show a strong interest in infants, carrying them like dolls and displaying nurturing behaviour.
- Young male primates and boys exhibit higher energy levels, preferring rough-and-tumble play and mock fighting, which serves as preparation for adult competition and helps them learn to control their physical strength.
- The segregation of boys and girls in playgrounds is partly due to girls disliking the rough nature of boys' play.
- Rough-and-tumble play is essential for male development, teaching control over strength, how to be "nice," and how to release pressure. The suppression of this type of play in schools (e.g., forbidding physical contact) is problematic and can lead to boys being disadvantaged or over-medicated.
- Self-socialisation plays a significant role in children's development, with children emulating individuals of their own sex, including adult models and fictional characters.
4. Female Choice, Sexuality, and Competition
- Female choice in mating is more significant than previously thought, even in chimpanzees. While dominant males mate more often, paternity testing reveals that females have preferences that don't always align with male hierarchy, and they actively seek sex with multiple males.
- Female sexuality is often adventurous, with bonobo females, for instance, having more sex than strictly necessary for reproduction and possessing a large clitoris, indicating pleasure-seeking.
- Female competition, while perhaps less physical, is not absent. It can be subtle and less visible, such as girls excluding others or using social tactics that boys may not even perceive as "fights".
- There's an observation that male fights often reconcile quickly, while female conflicts can be longer-lasting or involve "peacekeeping" by avoiding rivals rather than direct reconciliation.
5. Animal Cognition and Understanding Animals
- De Waal advocates for understanding animals on their own terms, considering their unique physical features and sensory perceptions ("Umwelt"). For example, elephants use their trunks as both hands and noses, affecting how they interact with tools.
- Examples like elephants using boxes to reach food or counting with their noses (distinguishing quantities of sunflower seeds) highlight their intelligence and sensory capabilities that differ vastly from humans.
- Humans tend to judge animal intelligence by human standards (language, tool use), overlooking complex cognitive skills like echolocation in bats and dolphins.
- De Waal argues for respecting homologies, meaning that similarities between species due to common ancestry (e.g., a chimpanzee's hand or laugh) should be described using the same terminology, rather than avoiding "anthropomorphism".
6. Consciousness and Sentience
- De Waal links consciousness to the capacity for future planning. If humans cannot plan without consciousness, it is likely that animals, such as chimpanzees who plan tool use, also possess a form of consciousness.
- The broader category of sentience (the ability to experience positive or negative experiences) is believed to extend far down the animal chain, possibly to insects and invertebrates.
- Experiments showing fish and crabs avoiding places where they were shocked suggest they experience pain and memory, indicating sentience.
- Self-consciousness, observed in some apes (chimpanzees, orangutans) through mirror recognition and self-adornment, suggests they view themselves as modifiable entities. This aligns with an observed female tendency for self-embellishment in apes and humans, which can be linked to unconscious hormonal influences, particularly during ovulation.
7. Modern Societal Challenges and Sex Differences
- Concerns are raised about boys' underperformance in school and decreasing interest in sexual activity, which might be linked to the suppression of male-typical behaviours often misconstrued as purely dominance-driven.
- The discussion touches on the "culture of fragility" in society, suggesting a lack of opportunities for children to learn resilience and conflict resolution, partly due to smaller families and over-mediated conflicts.
- The "egalitarian paradox" is mentioned: in more egalitarian societies (like Scandinavia), gender differences in personality and interests actually maximise, contradicting social constructionist predictions. Girls are reliably more interested in people, and boys in things, with this difference being most pronounced in egalitarian countries, significantly impacting occupational choices.
- This suppression of male ambition, often associated unthinkingly with negative power dynamics rather than competence and reciprocity, is seen as detrimental to men's engagement in social and interpersonal life.
- The impact of social media on aggression is discussed, with the lack of face-to-face confrontation potentially facilitating a "female style of anti-social behaviour" (gossip, reputation damage) among men, as the usual deterrent of physical aggression is absent.
- De Waal fundamentally believes that reconciliation, competence, empathy, and long-term planning are more fundamental to social interaction than aggression and violence, offering an optimistic perspective on human and animal nature.